Comments on: Babies and Bathwater http://andymoore.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/babies-and-bathwater/ a blog of Andy Moore Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:29:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU By: Tom (aka Volkmar) http://andymoore.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/babies-and-bathwater/#comment-199 Tom (aka Volkmar) Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:28:59 +0000 http://andymoore.wordpress.com/?p=195#comment-199 If we're to avoid "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", then let's exert a modicum of effort and GET THAT BABY OUT OF THAT BATHWATER...because I for one am pitchin' that bathwater. No ifandorbutts. Done. Tom If we’re to avoid “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”, then let’s exert a modicum of effort and GET THAT BABY OUT OF THAT BATHWATER…because I for one am pitchin’ that bathwater. No ifandorbutts. Done.

Tom

]]> By: Sarah http://andymoore.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/babies-and-bathwater/#comment-185 Sarah Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:30:13 +0000 http://andymoore.wordpress.com/?p=195#comment-185 This is a great post! And a good model of how we can dialogue with sensitivity to move toward mutual understanding. (Love is the goal, right?) :) I left church primarily because I was I was discontent with my own spiritual barrenness, and the barrenness of the churches in my city. None of us were producing new believers. People were switching churches, so some churches experienced 'growth' from that. But the kingdom was remaining static. It was not growing in my city, and that broke me. I began to question why we were so inwardly focused on our own spiritual transformation while millions of hurting people outside the walls were ignored. I left institutional church because I realized my Christianity cannot be about me (and my growth). It cannot be about my community of believers (and our growth). It has to be about love. Yes, love for each other (the faith community), but why do we stop there? The statistics of North America (from a missiological perspective) are deeply disturbing to me and they break my heart. When I was confronted with my own personal barrenness and took personal responsibility for contributing to these statistics, I cried out to God this simple prayer: "Lord, heal my barrenness." Barrenness in scripture has always been considered a curse, but I fear we are comfortable with it here in North America as normal Christianity. Normal Christianity is reproductive. I left institutional church because God called me out (a lot of people, maybe not you included, would not believe that God would do that). But I believe He is retraining many of us as a process of healing our barrenness, and giving us an outward, apostolic focus that seeks to expand his kingdom (rather than merely maintain the believers we have now). I think sometimes we confuse the church with the kingdom of God. I am just beginning to learn about Jesus's message of the kingdom. (He preached the majority of His messages on the kingdom, and mentioned the "church" only 2 or 3 times). Have we confused 'church' with the kingdom of God (and our goal of its expansion)? I think we have. In fact, I think we've replaced the latter with the former (and in a way, made the church into an idol. We cannot substitute the church for the work of the Holy Spirit and the supernatural, otherworldly kindgom of God). Yes, relationship and relationships of diversity (in denominational background, personal opinion and gifting and calling etc) are very important. But I believe a relational form of 'church' outside of institutions can reflect that kind of diversity. For some of us, it isn't bitterness or hurt that brought us out. I know that some have left because of toxic, unhealthy environments. And I also know that not all institutional churches are toxic. Some are very healthy, and I continue to learn from healthy leaders who are within those systems. However, my journey was a little different, so I just wanted to include it in the dialogue in hopes to contribute to mutual understanding. :) Thanks again for your thoughtful post! This is a great post! And a good model of how we can dialogue with sensitivity to move toward mutual understanding. (Love is the goal, right?) :)

I left church primarily because I was I was discontent with my own spiritual barrenness, and the barrenness of the churches in my city. None of us were producing new believers. People were switching churches, so some churches experienced ‘growth’ from that. But the kingdom was remaining static. It was not growing in my city, and that broke me. I began to question why we were so inwardly focused on our own spiritual transformation while millions of hurting people outside the walls were ignored.

I left institutional church because I realized my Christianity cannot be about me (and my growth). It cannot be about my community of believers (and our growth). It has to be about love. Yes, love for each other (the faith community), but why do we stop there? The statistics of North America (from a missiological perspective) are deeply disturbing to me and they break my heart. When I was confronted with my own personal barrenness and took personal responsibility for contributing to these statistics, I cried out to God this simple prayer: “Lord, heal my barrenness.” Barrenness in scripture has always been considered a curse, but I fear we are comfortable with it here in North America as normal Christianity. Normal Christianity is reproductive.

I left institutional church because God called me out (a lot of people, maybe not you included, would not believe that God would do that). But I believe He is retraining many of us as a process of healing our barrenness, and giving us an outward, apostolic focus that seeks to expand his kingdom (rather than merely maintain the believers we have now). I think sometimes we confuse the church with the kingdom of God. I am just beginning to learn about Jesus’s message of the kingdom. (He preached the majority of His messages on the kingdom, and mentioned the “church” only 2 or 3 times). Have we confused ‘church’ with the kingdom of God (and our goal of its expansion)? I think we have. In fact, I think we’ve replaced the latter with the former (and in a way, made the church into an idol. We cannot substitute the church for the work of the Holy Spirit and the supernatural, otherworldly kindgom of God).

Yes, relationship and relationships of diversity (in denominational background, personal opinion and gifting and calling etc) are very important. But I believe a relational form of ‘church’ outside of institutions can reflect that kind of diversity.

For some of us, it isn’t bitterness or hurt that brought us out. I know that some have left because of toxic, unhealthy environments. And I also know that not all institutional churches are toxic. Some are very healthy, and I continue to learn from healthy leaders who are within those systems. However, my journey was a little different, so I just wanted to include it in the dialogue in hopes to contribute to mutual understanding. :) Thanks again for your thoughtful post!

]]> By: grace http://andymoore.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/babies-and-bathwater/#comment-184 grace Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:29:43 +0000 http://andymoore.wordpress.com/?p=195#comment-184 Andy, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response both here and at my blog. As I said in response earlier, I very much agree with you about the intentionality of relationships and the need for a corporate experience of the body of Christ. I really never expected to be in this undefined position, but I do believe it part of God's process for me, maybe only specifically for me. I don't presume to think that everyone has to go this route. I am sure that it has to do with issues of letting go of control and trusting in the Lord's ability to position me within the Body according to His plans and purposes. I do believe that He will root me somewhere, and I have no idea what the plant that develops from that rooting will look like. Towards that end, I will attempt to trust Him and follow His lead in pursuing the relationships around me. Thank for sharing your perspective and wisdom on this topic. Andy,
I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response both here and at my blog.

As I said in response earlier, I very much agree with you about the intentionality of relationships and the need for a corporate experience of the body of Christ.

I really never expected to be in this undefined position, but I do believe it part of God’s process for me, maybe only specifically for me. I don’t presume to think that everyone has to go this route. I am sure that it has to do with issues of letting go of control and trusting in the Lord’s ability to position me within the Body according to His plans and purposes.

I do believe that He will root me somewhere, and I have no idea what the plant that develops from that rooting will look like. Towards that end, I will attempt to trust Him and follow His lead in pursuing the relationships around me.

Thank for sharing your perspective and wisdom on this topic.

]]> By: Joe Miller http://andymoore.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/babies-and-bathwater/#comment-183 Joe Miller Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:32:11 +0000 http://andymoore.wordpress.com/?p=195#comment-183 Very good thoughts and a positive encouragement. My own journey and battle against the business of church has been rough, but I, like you... just cannot get away from the Spirit inspired Scripture that draws me back to his living Family! Structure Form Shape Substance are not bad words... And more than that, they are words that reflect the nature of our Church. We cannot let the abuse be an excuse not to pursue Divine "<a href="http://www.morethancake.org/2007/09/one-another.html" rel="nofollow">one another</a>. Very good thoughts and a positive encouragement. My own journey and battle against the business of church has been rough, but I, like you… just cannot get away from the Spirit inspired Scripture that draws me back to his living Family!

Structure
Form
Shape
Substance are not bad words…

And more than that, they are words that reflect the nature of our Church. We cannot let the abuse be an excuse not to pursue Divine “one another.

]]> By: Barb http://andymoore.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/babies-and-bathwater/#comment-182 Barb Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:47:47 +0000 http://andymoore.wordpress.com/?p=195#comment-182 This was a very kind response to Grace and those of us who commented. These are exactly the reasons we are trying to figure out what Father has for us in the future. No matter what you say about the early church and how they did or did not do gatherings you have to come to the point where you have to agree that there were intentional meetings. I think some of what Grace and the rest of us are trying to figure out is what are those 'intentional meetings' supposed to be like. In reality, I think we are asking not, is it possible to have a 'churchless' faith but is it possible to have a 'institutionaless' faith. And with that question, I think we all agree that it is possible. This was a very kind response to Grace and those of us who commented. These are exactly the reasons we are trying to figure out what Father has for us in the future. No matter what you say about the early church and how they did or did not do gatherings you have to come to the point where you have to agree that there were intentional meetings.

I think some of what Grace and the rest of us are trying to figure out is what are those ‘intentional meetings’ supposed to be like.

In reality, I think we are asking not, is it possible to have a ‘churchless’ faith but is it possible to have a ‘institutionaless’ faith. And with that question, I think we all agree that it is possible.

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